What is freedom to you? Is it found in the memories of a carefree summer past, or recalling a time when you felt fully present doing something you love? How about Independence? Self-reliance, making your own decisions and timetables? These words carry a lot of weight in how we live our lives. Are we free of our past, upbringing, and inner critic? Are we independent if we are living in the shadow of our parents, our relationships or the all too familiar "codependency" with others? Hosts Kevin O'Donoghue and Niseema Dyan Diemer expand on the concept of declaring emotional independence to gain freedom in our lives. Five tools are offered to help you take steps toward becoming mentally and emotionally independent.
What is freedom to you? Is it found in the memories of a carefree summer past, or recalling a time when you felt fully present doing something you love? How about Independence? Self-reliance, making your own decisions and timetables?
These words carry a lot of weight in how we live our lives. Are we free of our past, upbringing, and inner critic? Are we independent if we are living in the shadow of our parents, our relationships or the all too familiar "codependency" with others?
Hosts Kevin O'Donoghue and Niseema Dyan Diemer expand on the concept of declaring emotional independence to gain freedom in our lives. Five tools are offered to help you take steps toward becoming mentally and emotionally independent.
For more information or support contact Kevin or Niseema at info@thepositivemindcenter.com, or call 212-757-4488.
These are challenging times and we hope this episode served to validate and ease your anxiety about what you may be experiencing.
Please feel free to also suggest show ideas to the above email.
Thank you for listening,
Kevin and Niseema
www.tffpp.org
https://www.kevinlmhc.com
www.niseema.com
www.thepositivemindcenter.com
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29s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Hi, everybody. This is licensed New York state mental health counselor, Kevin O'Donoghue.
35s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And I'm Niseema Dyan Diemer, licensed massage therapist and trauma specialist. And this is The Positive Mind,
42s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Bringing you some ideas, concepts, guests, to help you lead a more positively minded life. How's independence for positively minded life. Can you be happy and be dependent?
56s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Maybe
59s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Are your chances better for happiness? If you're independent, that's a question there's a thought for today because it's, you know, independence week here in America and here in New York city and around the country. And we thought we'd talk about independence because you know, what is it like to be dependent psychologically? I mean, we know kids high schoolers are dying to become adults, right? They're just tired of, but do they know what's ahead of them? Do they know the cost of independence? You know, they don't want to be dependent. They know somehow they're taking their orders from the adults and they don't want that anymore.
1m 44s
Kevin O'Donoghue
But do they know what it's like to be independent and no, they don't, but boy, do they have something waiting for them? Right? Some people don't want it. Even adults be independent. It's, it's easier to be dependent on for some people, but you miss out on a lot.
2m 4s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Well, and I kind of feel like kids have an idealized idea of what it means to be independent. There's such idealization in it. It means I can go to bed anytime I want. I can wake up anytime I want, I can eat anything I want. I can see whoever I want. So independence has an interesting fantasy
2m 26s
Kevin O'Donoghue
As if those are the most important things about being independent. How about having, how about having your own thoughts? How about feeling good? Right? I mean they think, oh, if I stay up late, you know that that's being independent. Wow. Or I can stay out late or, you know, when they find out that's not really what being independent means, independent means you get to make your own decisions and you get to handle the consequences of your own decisions. That's a great thing to strive for. So that's going to be our show today. We're going to talk about independence and how to achieve it.
3m 9s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And it's not an easy thing, you know, especially when you think about, take a, take somebody that adults, you know, and look at them and say, what are they dependent on? Like, you can see some people, wow. You can see how they're influenced by their parents. Let's say, or their ethnicity or where they come from, their work, that their thinking, their thoughts and their feelings are effected by all of these things. There's a kind of dependence there. Right? How do they become independent? And how about you? How much of you is independent of influenced by your parents, your upbringing, things maybe that you didn't even get to choose that were just foisted upon you, you went along with, and now you're an adult and you're like, how did I get in this trap?
4m 10s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And then you start looking at the influences, right? I mean, it could be like a sin to, to act, you know, contrary to your heritage. If your aunt, if you stop acting like an Irish American or an Italian American or German American or a native American, imagine if you, you stand up and say, I'm, I'm not interested in doing these things anymore. Whatever my heritage told me was normal and good to do, who am I, if I, if I do that,
4m 48s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
That's hitting on a much deeper layer. I think of independence that a lot of people don't move into some do some do when they're really, you know, wanting to move away from a certain heritage that they're ashamed about, or hasn't really benefited them. That takes a lot of deep courage because it's sort of saying, you know, yeah, I was born into this group, but am I of this group? Really?
5m 15s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah. Do I want it? Do I want everything? This group says is important. It's for me, you know, so I'm going to say, we're going to talk today about some tools, because it's not easy to know if you're independent or how to get independent. I mean, to me, the first thing you need is time. You need time to stop the presses, stop the influences, stop the voices, stop everybody's interference and find out, well, wait a second. How do I feel about belonging?
5m 57s
Kevin O'Donoghue
This club? How do I feel about parroting? My parents philosophy, my parents' attitude. How do I feel about loyalty to the club?
6m 10s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I think we're seeing the results of people having some time, all the movements that are coming out and getting support right now. I think that's because people have had some time and there have been flashpoints that have started things off. But
6m 24s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Now we have time.
6m 25s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Yeah. The virus, because of the virus, we've been able to have time to sort of see ourselves a little more. And then the George Floyd that happened. And we're see, we're now looking at a deeper layer of ourselves. So, and our culture and our society and what were we born into and what are we accepting and what do we not want to accept anymore?
6m 46s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Do you feel good about having permission to do nothing? That's our question. That's a good question. Do you feel good about it? Have you gotten to settle into this? Like, wow, this is the new normal. I don't have to rush somewhere in the morning. I don't have to be in traffic. I don't have to get on the subway. I don't have to go. Wow. I mean, I can maybe do nothing longer than I would normally do nothing. And boy, oh boy. Well, what things come up with me? Not doing anything with me doing nothing.
7m 23s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I think there's a real opportunity in there to notice, you know, what have I been doing? And is it what I want to be doing? And is it a reflection of me? And the, the way I've been, is this the way I want to continue to be and how I've interacted with people? Is this the way I want to continue to interact with people? And what can I do to make those changes? You know, there's also another layer of this that, that we want to move into in this word. Freedom is also tossed around at this time. And there's been so many reactions and responses to, you know, the fact that our personal freedom was highly, you know, restricted and hijacked.
8m 9s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
You know, I mean, we really, you know, it was a very big choice that we all had to make for our, for our country and other people to restrict ourselves in a huge way and restrict our own personal, physical freedom. And that's another aspect that I think we want to sort of work into this because independence and freedom seem to work together on some level, but they're also very different concepts,
8m 36s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Very different, very different. If you want to sell a product, just say it's free,
8m 42s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
But that's not freedom.
8m 45s
Kevin O'Donoghue
That's a different, but it is what is the word free? Yeah. Do you know, they've studied this. Like, you know, if you give something free, in addition to like 1999 a discount, you know, there's a chance people will buy it. So the word freedom clearly has a lot of power behind it, as opposed to maybe independence, which feels a little heavier as a word. Yeah, doesn't it?
9m 12s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
It does. Well, it's got all kinds of responsibility Laden in it, independence on some level.
9m 18s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So we're, we're asking people today to declare your independence decode. What if you could just declare it I'm that's it starting today? I'm going to be independent. I'm going to talk to my spouse. Talk to my siblings, talk to my boss, talk to whoever is, and I'm telling them I'm going to be independent from Noah.
9m 48s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Kevin, are you saying I'm going to go to my husband and say, I want to break up with my boss and say, I want to leave my job. My kids say, I'm, you know, I'm out of here, kids I'm independent, right?
10m 1s
Kevin O'Donoghue
No, no, because you know, I'm not saying you don't get to be independent as well. I'm just saying, I don't like how I'm showing up here. I don't like how I'm showing up in our relationship. I don't like how I'm showing up at work. I don't like how I'm showing up with my obligations and responsibility. I don't like it. I want to show up in a way that I like myself so that I'm independent, but I'm here. I'm being responsible. I'm doing my responsibilities and obligations and commitments, but there's a kind of dependence that I'm feeling.
10m 42s
Kevin O'Donoghue
There's a kind of losing of myself in all of this. I'm not liking who I am as I'm doing all of this. So maybe saying to them, I'm declaring my independence is, is maybe not the right way to do it. But that's the idea. What I'm saying is tell them, I don't like how I'm showing up here. And I want to show up with more of me, my true self than what I feel I am bringing here.
11m 11s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So it sounds also like I'm, I'm recognizing how I've been codependent and not really been myself in my relationship, in my dealings with my siblings in my work. There's a part of me. They haven't been seeing, they don't know really who I am or I just want to be more me.
11m 31s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. And I want to take the time to know who that is. I've lost myself somewhat. I don't like the word codependent in this context because codependent means that I'm my emotions are somehow connected to you and a react. No. What, what I think is more to the point is that I'm losing myself and it's, I'm not blaming anybody. I'm not blaming you. The boss, the partner, the my parents. I'm not blaming them. I'm just trying to get free of that. And I've lost myself there. So it's on me. It's on me. So what I'm saying is let's declare you can declare, you can say to yourself, well, I'm noticing how I'm not being me in all these places.
12m 19s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I am declaring that. I'm going to show up with me and thus, I am separate from you. I'm independent of you. I have a boundary. I'm me. And that's how I want to be when I, when I'm with you when I'm with anybody. And so that's a declaration of independence,
12m 41s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Right? And it's like, I'm choosing to be here. This is my choice. I want to be in this room, but I want to be fully, you know, able to be myself here and show up as fully as possible.
12m 55s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Isn't it, it's a beauty to witness somebody who's willing to do that. Because most of us, we do get lost. We do lose parts of ourselves in our commitments and responsibilities. We do lose contact with ourselves. Isn't it a beautiful thing to see somebody who just has made their declaration, not hostile, not hostile, just they are who they are and they, they feel themselves. So I'm going to say, as we bring up these four tools that we're going to talk about today, this first one is do nothing and see what happens, see how you're going to feel.
13m 37s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And like you say, we've been doing a lot because of the COVID pandemic of nothing. A lot of people know what this is feeling like, what's it doing to you? Is it, what are the positives? We know the downsides. There might be plenty of downsides for you, but what are the positives? What are you noticing? There's a lot of time to not do your usual dance.
14m 3s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Kevin, I can imagine it would be really a terrifying step on some level to declare your independence
14m 11s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And to do nothing is terrifying as well. Yes, it really is terrifying. I mean, just think about it. I mean, I think what we've gone through people have gone through with the pandemic is terrifying and has been terrifying and they have been terrified. And mostly because they've experienced doing nothing, nothing for the first time, imagine choosing to do nothing. And that was where these ideas first came from. These, these ideas about these tools that we're talking about are tools that we have been around for a while, but they're relevant now because so many people are having this opportunity of doing nothing without choosing to do it.
14m 55s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And so they're getting a little bit of a taste of the terror that we're talking about. That's behind this of doing nothing. I mean, just imagine a year ago, if I said to you, you know what, just spend a day sitting in your living room, not going anywhere, not doing anything and seeing if you can just stay in your living room and do nothing. I mean, what would that do to you? I mean, I mean, you would, you you'd get an opportunity to witness yourself. You'd get an opportunity to see all the things in all the ways that I distract myself, all the things that I fill my time with and a job is a necessary thing that we fill.
15m 45s
Kevin O'Donoghue
But are you lost in that job? Are you independent hanging on and being in that job? So that's, that's what the pandemic is doing. This idea that's been around for a while. And in trying to find yourself and trying to find your way of declaring independence by doing nothing. Now, people are confronting it in a large scale.
16m 13s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I remember before all of the pandemic and before internet and all of that, the, the biggest fear I had was if my TV would die and, you know, because that was, that was the thing that would, you know, keep me from doing nothing. Like if there's, you know, if I were sitting in that living room that you were talking about, and I didn't have access to the TV, cause that's the great distractor, right. And a distractor from myself in so many ways. And it's like, wow, you know what had happened once? And it was like, I was like, I'm not going to get this repaired immediately. I'm going to live for a week or so without my TV,
16m 53s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What did it do for
16m 54s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
You? And it was amazing. It's such a, it's such a freeing feeling to sort of not have that extra voice of the TV. You know, it was a little lonely, but it was like, you know what I can read or I can, you know, write or do something else and that, you know, experience. And, and when you really think of, I mean, like TV and media are occupying so much of our lives and keeping us from doing nothing, like in this time of COVID people who've been more socially active and more connected via, you know, all these screens than ever. And so I wonder if they're really have allowed the time to do nothing.
17m 38s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Was that the, so there's a thing. Some people are declaring their independence of social media, right? Because they, they realize how, how much they've got lost in it. And a lot of people have that experience coming back from a vacation of not watching a television for a month or three weeks. And like, and thinking of seeing that box is like an alien thing. Oh, maybe I shouldn't turn that on. Maybe I should push it, put it off for another week or two or forever. Imagine because you get a whole bunch of different feelings when that thing isn't on, let's say so, doing nothing can be terrifying.
18m 19s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And that's what we want you to do. We want you to scare yourself. We do. We want you to get in touch with this. You won't be the first person. That's I think a lot of people feel like, wow, I've never felt this way. I don't feel comfortable. I really don't like this. I don't want to do this. And if you were assured, look, this is good for you. Other people have gone through this. This is something that's going to clear things away from you for you to really feel who is the person that wants to declare their independence.
18m 52s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I am, I'm feeling a little desire to throw our listeners a little bone here in the midst of their day of doing nothing. You might allow yourself to tune into and feel well. What's the part of me that hasn't changed throughout my life. Like, is there a me a sense of self, a sense of who I am. Like, we all know ourselves on some very intimate level and there's a part of me that's been the same since day one. How do I feel that part of me that's always been there somehow.
19m 36s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And no matter what's happened in my life, it hasn't been touched. It hasn't been changed. It hasn't been hurt or abused or neglected. There's, there's that part of me.
19m 46s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And are you assuming that if we find that, that, that we can use that as our guide for independence and declaring our independence?
19m 54s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Absolutely. Because I think once you start to have a sense of that, yeah. You'll feel more secure in who you are in yourself and start to listen to your own inner voice. This is the still small voice. Yeah. So doing nothing sort of clears the noise away. So maybe you can hear that still small voice that has always been there in your life.
20m 15s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What if that still small voices, like a little criminal? What if, what if you asking, like, who was this part of me that hasn't changed that has always been here is, is, is like a dysfunctional
20m 32s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Aspect
20m 32s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Of yourself
20m 33s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Feeling that still might not be it like go a little deeper because I really trust and believe that, that we come here as, as pure beautiful beings that are in alignment. You know, it's like, does that, when you discover that space, you'll feel like an inner alignment and inner, like tuning to yourself and it will feel good. It will be a quality of goodness. And I think if the criminal comes up, it's like, oh, well, you know, maybe that was a response to how people treated me or how I felt in my life. But that that's not really me
21m 11s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And your original goodness. Yeah. My original goodness. Can you find that one? Yeah. I like that. That's not part of the tools, but let's add it. That's tool number five, that
21m 25s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
You,
21m 25s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You, you, you, in the midst of doing nothing, you D you turn your mind back to finding you the, the timeless you,
21m 37s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Right. And, and, and a way to do that is to say, you know, when did I, when are the times of my life, when I felt like myself, like, and they might be times of like, flow, we've talked about flow sometimes when you felt like, oh, this is a real true expression of me. Like, maybe it was when I was doing art or when I was out hugging a tree or when I was a little kid or, you know, when did I, you know, just, just even asking that question, like, when did I last feel like myself and just see what comes to mind.
22m 8s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I wonder if the memory gives out, like, you know, sometimes you can only get to like 14, 16, and I'm imagining the being you're talking about is maybe 5, 6, 7, at least. That's where I go to. Yeah. Okay. So that's a, that's an aspect of this and maybe to take the terror away or dominion, and you lower the terror by saying, well, what's the original goodness creature that I was right before I lost my independence. Right. But again, if you're in that child condition, so you never, you're not really fully independent.
22m 48s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So maybe you can use the energy of that young, younger you in the present. And I would do believe that that's available. And when people discover that their lives can get very interesting and very animated and very energized. So I think that's a useful exercise,
23m 5s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Right? And it might feel like a certain kind of freedom. Like it was a time when you felt free, even though you may have been dependent on your family or whatever, there, there might be those little moments of freedom. It could have been when you went to school, you felt free. It could have been, you know, the walking to school where you felt this kind of freedom and yourself.
23m 28s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Okay. One of the things that helps people is now stay with me on this. What are your worst traits at this point in your life right now? What are your worst traits? What would you say? What's, what's the, you know, my worst, one of my worst traits is I, I need to have many things going on at once many things going on at once. So that would be one, that's a, that's a trait I have distractability that I can be easily distracted.
24m 13s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What else? I'm just, so I'm not disorganized. I'm impatient. I am impatient. I don't plan for the future. Right? I don't plan for the future. And let's one more, five, five of your worst characteristics. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. I get angry. I can get angry. Okay. So those are five. I need to do many things at once.
24m 54s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I'm distractable, I'm impatient. I can get angry. And I don't think of the future
25m 6s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And of those traits, which of your parents would agree that these are terrible traits and you should fix them.
25m 16s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Let's see. Let's see. Don't think of the future. My father.
25m 21s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Yeah. Your father would be very upset. Many
25m 24s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Projects at once. My father distractable, my father, what were the other angry? My father and in pain. Oh, my father five out of five. My father, let me think of one. My mother would disapprove of, well, that's not true. I was going to say uncaring because I am carrying a, so mom would approve of that. I let's, let's just go on with this with dad. So five and a five. What, what does that mean? So these five traits that I, or my worst and my father would agree, they're my worst. What am I supposed to do with those?
26m 5s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
That's the person, the parent whose love and approval you're living for.
26m 13s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Probably true.
26m 15s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And
26m 16s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Probably
26m 17s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
It's interesting to me that these would all be things that they would want to fix in you.
26m 24s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. And since they're not around to fix it, I have to fix it. And these are interestingly, these are things that I am actually working on. That they're things I'm aware of. And I feel them as flaws. And they nag at me. They're nagging. And I didn't think of it as trying to please my father get my father's approval. I didn't think of it that way. I thought of it as these are just nagging me and I need to take care of them. But actually it's probably yes, to get my father's off my back. As it were, get my father off my back.
27m 7s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What's wrong with being impatient. What's wrong with not thinking about the future. What's wrong with being distractible. What's wrong with doing many things at once. What's wrong with those things. Nothing's wrong with those. So,
27m 19s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So you get caught up in thinking that there's something wrong with you because my father didn't love me. And these were the ways that I, the excuses I gave up, I came up with as to why my dad wouldn't love me because I'm irritable or, or, you know, it's like, oh, so that's why he doesn't love me. So I've got to fix that in order for him to love me.
27m 42s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Correct. So we get lost. There it is, right. We're losing our independence. We've lost our independence. We're now dependent on these thoughts of, of how to get dad's approval instead of accepting them and mud, they can actually be good. Things is there's a good thing about not thinking always about the future. It means I'm in the present and that's a good thing. So there it is. You've lost her independence because you bought it. You believe these were worst. Characteristics are being disapproved of by your parent and you have to fix them.
28m 22s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So here's what we recommend. We change it from worst to idiosyncrasies, right? So there's no judgment, right? It'd be curious. Now, if I turn it into, wow, that's something interesting. Why don't you think about the future? Why don't you plan for the future? What is it about you that makes you not plan for the future? What's good about that.
28m 45s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
It's your kind of, you luck to live a spontaneous sort of life, a creative life. One that isn't maybe held to a certain goal. And if you were able to get curious this way, it sounds like you'd be, you'd be able to stop beating yourself up
29m 2s
Kevin O'Donoghue
That nagging voice of tagging
29m 5s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
The critic. You know, it's like so many people listened to the critic rather than their gut, their internal sense of their self, that still small voice I'm spontaneous. You know, let's just see what life brings live for today,
29m 21s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Right? So we're The Positive Mind. And we're telling you, that's a trap that the negative is a trap that it tracks back to daddy or mommy or the critic. The critic is the mediator between mommy and daddy. There becomes this alien figure in ourselves that we don't think as mommy. And, but it is. So we're still trying to get their approval. And so there's a dependence and we're telling you take the judgment off it. Let's make this list make as big a list as you can. Let's do 15 of these traits. And let's use this as a way to give people time, to write down some of these negative traits.
30m 6s
Kevin O'Donoghue
As we go into our break, we will be back. We are The Positive Mind. I'm Kevin O'Donoghue, licensed mental health counselor here with Niseema Dyan Diemer And we will be back after this music break
30m 53s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Hi, welcome back to The Positive Mind. This is Niseema Dyan Diemer, and I'm here with Kevin O'Donoghue and we're talking about, you know, we left you with listing your negative traits as long as list as you can come up with
31m 5s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And long
31m 6s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Make it long. And it really could be like, like, what is it that inner critic says to you? Like all the time? Yeah. All those phrases, all those words. And I find when I do this, when I have other people do this, it it's really helpful to get it out there so you can actually see it because you're so familiar
31m 25s
Kevin O'Donoghue
With that critical voice.
31m 27s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Get it on a page, get it on a sticky note. Put it outside of you a little bit, because the voice really is coming from outside of you. Those voices, aren't your, it's not your voice. That's not the still small voice we're looking for. So in a way, it helps to sort of clear the decks.
31m 42s
Kevin O'Donoghue
It's a kind of question as seeming like whose finger is pointing at you in your mind, that makes you feel like you're not enough. Like you you're behind the eight ball. Like you are behind. Like, you're not independent. Like you're there you're sort of. You're sort of dependent.
32m 1s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Right. It's how,
32m 3s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Whose finger is.
32m 3s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
It's how we sort of hold on to that person too, by holding onto the critiques. And, and so you might just buy each one mark, like who you think that's from mother, father, right? Caretaker. Where did you get that? Maybe it came from school. Maybe it became, came from siblings. You never know, but just identify it. I think it helps to identify and then see what's there.
32m 29s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah. So I'll go through each one of them. Right? So let's take a, we're taking the judgment off of each one and celebrating all the good that each one of them holds. There's a little gold in them. But you were saying to me during the break that Kevin, this one about you needing always to be distracted or always to be occupied or have many things going on at once. Right. And yes, my father was very single focused, very committed man knew what he had to do and did it would look at this as like a very inefficient way to be living for one thing. So why are you doing son of mine?
33m 11s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And you were looking and I'm just like, well, for me, it's like my creativity. I like, if I don't keep things in motion, then I get sort of jammed up and I feel uncreative and on energized. And then I don't know who I am. And then I'm in that place of doing nothing. And then I get frightened and terrified. And then I feel like I'll never come out of it. And I'll just stay on the couch all day. And I'll do that for months and months. And that's, what's behind or could be what's behind this need to always be doing multiple projects at once.
33m 50s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So Kevin, this could have been an, a way to avoid boredom and avoiding boredom. Like there's a lot of, there can be a lot of richness and boredom. And if you're busy with, you know, it's like the minute boredom comes, you move to something else is an opportunity there to feel into a little bit more creativity, a little more trust in yourself. That's that sense of your gut?
34m 16s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You know, interesting know that. So there's a follow-up question here and I, who would you not who didn't let you be bored. And immediately my mother came to mind when you said, if I let myself be bored, my mother showed up and boy, did she push you around?
34m 32s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And is it idle, idle hands of the devil's playground?
34m 37s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes, but there was a more sinister message. And I don't really, I don't know what she's like. It was basically like, no son of mine is going to be bored. You better get on your move. You need to get out of this house and get out of my hair. Right. I mean, that's the more subtle message, sorry, mom. I know you didn't mean it, but I think there is something to that. So maybe there's another layer. This is very good. I'm glad you're you're on with me today because there's another layer beyond the celebration of the good aspect to these qualities, that there might be some core gem that might track back to the other parent or my track back to something else and insight that could really liberate you were here for liberation, that you talked about freedom, and I think freedom and independence are different.
35m 26s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So let's talk. This is about freedom. I think when we go down the rabbit hole here,
35m 32s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Well, and just to circle back, I think the ability to do multiple projects at once is like what people are doing now. It's multitasking. It's a quality that, you know, we need to be able to hold, you know, multiple streams of thought our economics is not like it was with your father. You could have one job your whole life. That's not how it is anymore. This ability is, has its gold within it. And again, it's how you're thinking about it, how you're viewing it and what part of yourself is in it.
36m 6s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So here's the third tool we're talking about to write out as many as you can so that you can come back to it and meditate and think about just one at a time, fully IMR, submerge yourself in the quality, the feeling of each of these traits and see how it can be turned into a positive. And then maybe what the other tag to it might be that might lead to an even deeper feeling. So this is the way towards independence and energy. You know, as we're talking, it strikes me, this is a way to get energy.
36m 49s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So another step in this process is to also ask, what am I doing on a daily basis? That is not me
37m 2s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Right? To root out the activities that you're doing every day that are not you. Are you someone who drinks five cups of coffee a day? Is that if that's you that's, you, that's great. Let's take the judgment out of this. What are some things that you're doing every day that are not you? Let me see.
37m 28s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I mean, I used to drink a lot of coffee and it really upset my stomach. It really upset my body. I was in a high pressure environment. I think I realized like, well, first of all, I have to stop the coffee because it's not, it's just not good for me. And when I was drinking coffee, I had to eat all kinds of carbs so that my stomach would feel good. How can I sorta drop that and do the work that I'm doing? And I actually ended up leaving the work I was doing.
38m 3s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Wow.
38m 4s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
It was like that whole career. It was in television. Production was like, this is not me. This really isn't me. Like, like I'm faking it here. And I have to push myself so hard in order to show up here and be in the speed and the pace of that environment. And I'm not a fast paced, fast processing kind of person. I just am not. And I was, you know, faking it and doing the coffee in order to be there and do that. My whole life changed when I made that decision to not do that anymore.
38m 41s
Kevin O'Donoghue
It's interesting. You know, when I was a teacher, I was caught myself being a disciplinarian and I caught myself doing it. And I was like, I really don't like myself when I'm this way. Right. And I thought, I am not a punitive disciplinarian. And yet there I was, I was doing the very thing that my father would have done. And my brothers might've done and there I was doing it. And I it's like, I cannot do this job if this is what I'm going to have to do, we're going to have to be. And so I left teaching, not directly for that reason and that reason alone. But you get to a point where you're doing things that you don't like yourself.
39m 24s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And we're saying that it's not easy to find yourself to know who, who you are and what you like about yourself, but it is easier to know what you don't like about yourself. So we're, we're encouraging you to make this list of things that I am not. What am I doing? That I am really not. If you're a mother, are you not someone who cleans up after your children? Like there's towels on the bathroom floor and you just go ahead and take care of that. My mother wasn't like that. My mother was a mother is like, I do not clean or pick up after you. That's not who I am. You let me show you. I don't want to have to deal with this again.
40m 5s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You are the one who cleans up after you. So these are the kinds of things we're saying. Find the things that you're doing every day, that aren't really you, that you have a boundary or, and say, stop
40m 19s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
One way to know this is like, how do you feel when you're doing it? I had stomach issues at that time. I had anxiety issues at that time. Right? I think a lot of people, I see they come to me with stomach issues and very often the stomach and the body, or like a lot of tension in the body is telling you you're not in the right place. You're not where you should be. Like, something is off here. You're, you're maybe doing something that is not you. Or you just have this sinking feeling in you or just some confusion,
40m 56s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Icky, feeling an icky
40m 58s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Feeling. It just might be an I'm sure was an icky feeling for you to, to become a disciplinary incident.
41m 3s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah, that right. There was something right.
41m 5s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I got my clothes, like, what am I doing in this? You know? And, and just to, to identify those times and places and things that you're doing, that just don't feel like you
41m 16s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Right before they become like a, a, it becomes a critical time. Like, you know, you don't want to find yourself at the end of your rope and realizing, wait a second. This is what I'm, this is what I've ended up doing. You want to do it when you're in midstream, like you're getting, you're getting hints along the way. This doesn't feel right. I don't feel good when I'm in this position. I don't feel good doing this.
41m 44s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And you might discover like, what's the mask you've been wearing. What's the, what's the, what are the clothes you've been putting on that? Just earn that just don't fit you.
41m 55s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah. It strikes me that as a boundry Niseema, that when you identify these things that are not, you, you're, you're getting a boundary, you're starting to develop a boundary. And I think you can not be independent without being a boundaried person. You have to have firm boundaries
42m 16s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And, and boundaries really do rely on you being able to see yourself. And these are ways to see yourself. Like you need to become visible to yourself so that you can become visible to others. And that's what the boundary allows is for you to be visible to others. And this declaration of independence, you know, personal independence that you're encouraging people to make as like, I mean,
42m 40s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So I, I think just to recap for that, we've done so far is do nothing.
42m 48s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Your worst traits, your
42m 49s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Worst traits, what am I not doing? And, but also that,
42m 53s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
What am I doing?
42m 54s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What am I doing? That's not me. And the fourth one that you mentioned as you're doing nothing, who was my original self, my original me and my original goodness to ask yourself as you're going into that terror of doing nothing of who, what is something that has been with me all of my life that's been good.
43m 18s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Or
43m 19s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What's the trait?
43m 20s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Or like, when was the last time I felt like myself.
43m 25s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah. You could put it that way.
43m 26s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
There isn't that way. It is.
43m 27s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah. But, okay. So the fifth one last one, these tools of getting to know yourself and becoming fully independent is to own all of your emotions, to not blame your emotions on somebody else. These are emotions in you, right? You're getting the energy of the emotion that's happening to you. Somebody, you know, people are so used to saying, you make me so angry. You, you did XYZ. And that's why I'm the way I am. So you become a person who is a certain way because somebody else makes you feel that way.
44m 9s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So it doesn't sound like independence when you take ownership. No, I feel angry when you do this, there's two separate things there there's me with this feeling and there's you, or it or something that is causing it. So there's a separation. When you say you make me angry, it's like I take in the part of you that makes me angry. And now you're inside of me.
44m 36s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And this is a real co-dependent. This is where co-dependence is little bit in here. Because again, it's like that emotional ground that gets very confusing when you are in a dependent relationship or a codependent relationship, like I am kind of at the mercy of your feelings and what you're doing. And it's, it's, you know, my emotions are at the mercy of your actions, right? And this is a really difficult state to live in. And you really do lose yourself in the other, in this kind of state or this kind of relationship or relating.
45m 16s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And if, if we grew up in, if you grew up in a difficult, you know, household where there was, you know, some sort of ism going on and alcoholism, or, you know, something that was took up so much space that you really, you know, had a tendency probably to merge with that parent. And then your tendency is to merge with others. You lose there's no, there's no you there and you anymore. You're just gone in other people's, you know, perceptions or actions or feelings. And to, to sit back and start to discover who you are. And yes, find that boundary is how you start to break that cycle.
45m 60s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And that's the tragedy of dysfunctional families and being one of them and growing up and being in a role that you didn't choose. You, you learn this habit. The only way to stay out of trouble was to merge with the parent that was dysfunctional and alcoholic or whatever. They might've been the rage-aholic
46m 17s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
To be their caregiver.
46m 19s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And yeah, so you've learned this and that felt safe and good. And now you're an adult doing the same thing and it doesn't feel good. And now what am I supposed to do? This is what I needed to do to survive. I don't maybe need it anymore. Let me focus on what am I doing that I am not, what am I doing every day that I am not, what are the worst traits and how can I look at them in a different way, in a curious way, what emotions am I having me now in the present? Not in the past, when I was dependent on my parents in this dysfunctional phone family, what emotions am I having now?
47m 4s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And let me track where they go to become curious about your emotions.
47m 8s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So you mentioned that one of your traits is that you get angry easily. Yes. So you're suggesting like you might take full responsibility for that flashpoint anger.
47m 19s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I celebrate that because you know, it's, it's an evolution for me. The model in my home was never to be angry at my father to be angry, was to be unintelligent. And my father never, ever showed anger. He was always in control. So I wasn't, I wasn't going to be angry. I'm not going to challenge that he was bunch of bigger than I was. So I'm not going to get angry. And I learned not to get angry in all my years of teaching. Right, right. I was not angry. I, I, I mean, I was disciplinary and I guess there is an anger behind that, but I didn't show anger in traditional ways.
48m 6s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And so now I feel anger and it's like, wow, this is, this is massive. This is energy. This is like, I can use this. And this is right. This makes sense. I should be angry. And what can I do with this? I'm going to use this. I'm not going to self-destruct and I'm not going to go to sleep. I'm not going to turn it inward and become depressed. I'm going to acknowledge this is real. This, because anger is a way of having standards. If you look at it, when you get angry, it's like something's happening that you don't think should be happening. And so I have a standard about how people should behave towards each other.
48m 48s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I have a standard about what should happen in politics. I have a standard about what happens in government and institutions. Yes.
48m 56s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And I have a standard about how people interact with me. And that's often, you know, anger is often a sign of a boundary transgression. So again, you're, you're sort of standing up for yourself in anger and it's an important emotion. I think we often talk about in the trauma world about bringing on healthy aggression, as opposed to anger, you know, as, as a word, because it has a lot of, you know, connotations, anger, but this quality of healthy aggression, which says, no, you can't treat me like that. It's not okay. What you just said, that lets you be seen and lets you bring in the, the defense that very often we weren't allowed to have, we weren't allowed to defend ourselves.
49m 43s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So you know, your father and sort of controlling anger in the situation probably wise for a large family, you don't want a bunch of angry kids running around, hurting each other, but not allowing a certain quality of self to appear and in a knowing of self
50m 1s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. And then many shadings in different colors that emotions can bring to your life. So this idea of owning your emotions own the color of your own life, right? Do not become gray, allow yourself to feel mad, sad, bad, glad, scared. Right? So fear. Yeah. And cause when you suppress those emotions, you know, it takes away some of the color. So nobody likes to feel fear and nobody likes to feel anxiety, which is a bad feeling.
50m 41s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Nobody likes to feel it. But when you squelch it, you squelch, you know, your own range, your own color, your own possibilities.
50m 51s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And, and we talk a lot in trauma about, you know, living from a black and white sort of I idea of life and living like it's either right or it's wrong. And when you, when you sort of allow your emotional life and a certain range capacity to experience and take ownership for your emotions, then you kind of can have more of a rainbow Technicolor world where, you know, it's like, there's more than black and white in this world. And I think we're discovering that now in many different ways right now. But, but that there is this whole range of experience that can happen between the right and the wrong of life.
51m 33s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So we only have a few minutes to SEMA. What do we want to say during this pandemic? And during this independence week or holiday to close out our show that look, you know, doing nothing is been a habit for most of us in some way, for the last few months, everybody is like, how do I turn this negative into a positive? I think everybody's kind of trying to figure out how can I make this as productive a time as possible. Now if you've asked yourself, if you've gone through the do nothing stage, what did you learn from it?
52m 18s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Did you learn something from it? Did you get down to like something in yourself that gave you permission to really feel maybe something new for yourself?
52m 31s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I'm curious if maybe you feel differently in your body, did stomach issues go away? Did some tension that you always held or some pain that you always had? Did it get better? Did it alleviate? And that might be something to be curious about. It's like, wow. When I think about going back to the work I was doing or the way I was living, does this suddenly come back like suddenly my stomach starts turning and turning again or, or not, you know, it might be an interesting way to, to feel into it. And I think our intention with this show is to really help people, you know, entertain the idea that something can be different and, and this world is changing a lot right now we're in a big shift point here.
53m 20s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And I think everybody feels that and let's sort of, you know, ride this wave together and see, you know, where we land, you know, what shore do we land on when this all, you know, when this passes or starts to settle or is moving through and like take this opportunity to, to discover yourself and where do you stand on everything that's being revealed these days?
53m 44s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What am I doing on a daily basis? That is not me. What are my five, 10 worst traits? And how can I turn them into a curiosity? What are my emotions and how do I take ownership for each? And every one of them, what am I doing on a daily basis? That is not me. And I want to stop. And the last is when did I achieve and get in touch with my original self. This part of me that hasn't changed at all and is a positive thing.
54m 25s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You've been listening to The Positive Mind. I am Kevin O'Donoghue, a licensed New York state mental health counselor.
54m 30s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I'm Niseema Dyan Diemer. You can reach us at info@tffpp.org or info@thepositivemindcenter.com. And we'd love to hear from our listeners and
54m 45s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Have a happy holiday, happy independence week and a happy independent life. We'll see you next week on the positive. Bye. Bye