Dreaming of familiar places with masked faces? COVID dreams are real reflecting our vulnerability in a time of uncertainty and anxiety. Kevin O'Donoghue LMHC and Niseema Dyan Diemer LMT, SEP discuss the sleep, dreams and vulnerabilities we have been experiencing during these months of living under a pandemic. Our environments have changed and so have our sleep patterns and dream content. Kevin and Niseema focus on the wisdom of vulnerability as an antidote to disconnection.
Dreaming of familiar places with masked faces? COVID dreams are real reflecting our vulnerability in a time of uncertainty and anxiety. Kevin O'Donoghue LMHC and Niseema Dyan Diemer LMT, SEP discuss the sleep, dreams and vulnerabilities we have been experiencing during these months of living under a pandemic. Our environments have changed and so have our sleep patterns and dream content. Kevin and Niseema focus on the wisdom of vulnerability as an antidote to disconnection.
For more information or support contact Kevin or Niseema at info@thepositivemindcenter.com, or call 212-757-4488.
These are challenging times and we hope this episode served to validate and ease your anxiety about what you may be experiencing.
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Thank you for listening,
Kevin and Niseema
www.tffpp.org
https://www.kevinlmhc.com
www.niseema.com
www.thepositivemindcenter.com
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Hey everybody, this is Kevin O'Donoghue, your licensed New York state mental health counselor.
30s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And I'm Niseema Dyan Diemer, licensed massage therapist and trauma specialist. And this is The Positive Mind,
36s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Bringing you some ideas, concepts, and guests to help you lead a more positively minded life. And how was
44s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Your life out there? You know, we are going into the second month or late of the second month of this pandemic and the roads here in New York are still quiet. And how is your neck of the world? And we thought
58s
Kevin O'Donoghue
We'd talked today about a very specific topic because I'm noticing some changes in myself around this idea of sleep. How much sleep do you allow yourself?
1m 10s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And are you allowing yourself more? And are you noticing a change in the pattern of your sleep? You know, without sleep, the human mind does not function well. No, it's a form of torture sleep deprivation. So now in this time of the pandemic, you know, people are all experiencing a change in the way they sleep and perhaps in the way they dream. And so we're going to talk today about sleep and dreams and vulnerability. And are you feeling vulnerable? Are you noticing a change in the way you've been sleeping two words hypnagogic and hypnopompic I learned this the other day hypnopompic, you know, and the seeming that, that stage between waking up and actually still sleeping that's hypnopompic, that's an interesting word.
2m 6s
Kevin O'Donoghue
It is interesting. I'm asking people about their hypnopompic hours. Some people are making them last, like an hour, an hour and a half. This stage of sleep where, you know, I don't have to get up just yet. So let me see what dreams come. Are you noticing that that's hypnopompic yes.
2m 27s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I've often been able to like come out of a dream, into waking in the morning and then like, know that I can sleep a little longer, go back and finish the tree.
2m 36s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. Right. Isn't that great. It's a very satisfying, right. It's so satisfying.
2m 41s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Or just going back into the dream, like, it was a good dream. I want to go back there and I go back. It's like, Oh, that's so cool.
2m 47s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You know, we're so lucky in that because you know, my dreams get interrupted and I can never get them back. And I probably, you know, it's sometimes you want to hold onto a dream and like, Oh wait, wakefulness is coming. And I know I'd, let me keep dreaming. Let me finish this dream.
3m 2s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Yeah. I've been noticing that I'm, I'm, I'm more aware of my dreams than I have been in a long time. Like they're really more present to me now than they have.
3m 12s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah. Is it interesting? Is it because you, why is that? Because you're not rushed and you're able to spend more time seeing your dreams, paying attention to them, writing them down.
3m 22s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I think it might have to do with how quiet the city is, because I think I'm able to really like fully, you know, sleep in a way that I haven't been able to sleep in a long time.
3m 33s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yeah. So you're not hearing any traffic, sanitation, ambulances late at night. You know, that's one thing I haven't heard in a while is the ambulance maybe cause you know, there's nobody on the road, so they're allowed to just go fast anyway.
3m 49s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Well there's that, but I think there are less ambulances going to the hospitals, you know? Well, that's good news. It's definitely, definitely a shift in that. So,
3m 58s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So we want to talk about sleeping and dreaming and vulnerability today. And you know, I'm wondering if you out there are experiencing a change in your sleep patterns. How about your wife, your children, your friends, anybody, you know, people, you know, your siblings, are they noticing something about how they're sleeping? You know, sleep is important in mental health. You know, we think that if you, if you can just sleep, maybe it'll solve some of your personal conflicts. And there is some truth to that. But you know, when one of the clinical signs of major depression is an oversleeping or an insomnia either, or you're on either end of the spectrum.
4m 40s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So your sleep is clear, the disturbed it's one of the things we ask first when somebody reports being depressed, we also ask about your appetite, how is your appetite?
4m 50s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Well, one of the signs, you know, for a traumatic experience, especially it's something that I've been hearing from people who have gone through having COVID-19 that going to sleep at night is like impossible. They're having kind of a sundowning kind of experience. They don't want to sleep. It's a scary time for them. They'll sleep during the day and not sleep at night. And it makes sense to me because if you've had, I mean, going through COVID is a near-death experience and the body and the mind and the nervous system will equate the sleeping at night to the potential for death. And it's also why older folks sundown. They often don't want to go to sleep at night because it feels too close to death.
5m 33s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So it is a very vulnerable state. And that's why we also wanted to include vulnerability in our talk today because it's there, they all link together in a really interesting way,
5m 44s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You know? And it strikes me. You do have to let yourself, even as a young man, a person, you almost surrender to sleep. Yes. You know, you fight it. Oh, I'll stay up another hour. I'll think I can go even longer. And I want to lose consciousness. I want to stay awake as much as I can. You know that to actually slide into sleep and allow sleep to come is kind of like a vulnerability.
6m 9s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
It is a huge vulnerability. And it's so mysterious. I think some mystics talk about being aware of the moment they fall asleep. Like I'm never aware of them. I like, I know some nights I'm like, I'm tired. I'm not tired. I'm kind of dah, dah, dah. And then all of a sudden I'm waking up in the morning. I'm like, Oh, so I guess I went to sleep and I don't know how that happened. I mean, it's like, wow, that's kind of wild, right? It is a very mysterious state that we go into. When we go to sleep a couple of differences,
6m 41s
Kevin O'Donoghue
They still spend their whole life studying sleep and dreams because the white, well, who knows why maybe the waking world is just not interesting enough because sleep is one of the last mysteries and dreams and dreams is one of the last mysteries out there around human consciousness. So is your sleep troubled? I mean, I think for me, like I've been saying there's a difference each week. I'm feeling somebody said to me yesterday that they, that they're having a different title for each week because something different is going on for them. And so I think, you know, it took me about six weeks to stop fighting it and start paying attention to this.
7m 24s
Kevin O'Donoghue
This is for real, you know, and I've been using a mask the whole time, but it's just really personally my personal clock refuse to give in until, you know, two weeks ago or so. And now I'm checking into the rhythm of everybody else and everything around it is so quiet when the lights go down, you know, when the darkness comes and, and people turn on their lights and even, I think, you know, you see, you don't see that many lights on in people's homes as much, maybe they're in one particular area quarantined even in their own homes. So, you know, I was thinking about sleep and how, okay.
8m 4s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I can sleep a little bit more or I better not sleep anymore, but I get up and do some exercise. It better go out and food shop and I better eat. Right. You know? So it's like this pendulum of letting myself be free or feel free. And then also this severe critic coming in and saying, Nope, take care, take care, take care.
8m 24s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And there also might be a real dance between the feeling of fatigue and kind of overwhelm that we're experiencing from just this whole shift and being quarantined and not being able to do our lives as we want. And just the constant news that we can feel fatigued and that we want to sleep. And that sleep becomes kind of a refuge sleep can be addictive in a way, you know, it's like, I just want to sleep more. I want to sleep through this whole thing. I don't want to see what's on, you know, let me just sleep. Let me just sleep.
9m 0s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You were asleep deprived country in general, you know, so we're very hardworking people. We might be deprived of sleep. So now is this time, like we can look back on and say, Oh, I did catch up on some sleep during the pandemic. Now I can work really hard. I know some people are so itching to go back to work and willing to work seven days a week, you know, that they feel like they've rested well enough and that they can go a marathon of work now. So they've caught up, right?
9m 32s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Another thing that's coming to me about maybe the resistance to sleep or what can happen like in when people get this virus, one symptom that are they're reporting is that they just want to sleep all the time. It is so deeply fatiguing and so deeply exhausting that they're sleeping like 16 hours a day. Yeah. That's
9m 52s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Not too much. Well, yeah.
9m 55s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And it's not going to help you cause it's like, you know, they say get up and move as much as you can to keep the lungs clear that it's really important, but the desire in the body is to sleep. And in trauma we talk about over couplings and kind of this idea of sleep being dangerous can become an over coupling in your body when you're struggling through something like this, what do you mean by coupling two things going together that don't necessarily belong together? So in this case, sleep and death, so, or, or the, or fighting a virus like there's a virus in my sleep, you know, it's like my, my sleeping is because of me fighting a virus.
10m 40s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And so my sleeping, when I get better, might still be connected with that virus. So if I don't sleep, I don't have the virus. You know, it's like there, it's an unconscious bodily physical coupling that can happen. And it's really important to start separating out what is sleep and what is fighting a virus. Yes.
10m 60s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And it's important for your mental health to really deliberately pay attention to the needs of the body and in a proportionate way, 16 hours of sleep is never good under any circumstance.
11m 12s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Yeah. You got to get up and move unless you're
11m 14s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Unconscious on, on, on the gurney or in post-surgery. Right. You know, but for, for your average, typical normal American person, it's not good to sleep 16 hours.
11m 27s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Yeah. But again, this is during the, you know, having an illness and it could be very alluring to want to just keep sleeping. And it's important. I think for people who are struggling with it to get up and move every so often.
11m 40s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes, let's, let's itemize a few other ideas of self care. Then Niseema, because if we're saying 16 hours of sleep is not healthy, let's say 10 would be max, at least on a consistent basis. If you're sleeping more than 10 hours a night, there might be something psychological going on and that's okay. I mean, it's one thing to be aware of it. The mind will heal, but you have to do something yourself in order to prevent this from getting even worse. So, you know, I keep referring to how people are, you know, walking and people are cooking and eating well. I don't see a lot of joggers out there.
12m 21s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I see quite a few. You do.
12m 23s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
There's a lot of discourse around that. But the another thing would be to not be watching the news too much, especially before it's time to go to bed, right?
12m 33s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So there are exercises and things you can do and things you should avoid. And then watching the news and listening to the, the negative data and everything, and people talking around the data nonstop is one thing that you should avoid as well. And there's also a sign that if you're paying too much attention to it, you might be having some psychological adjustments and issues going on. You know, I think to immediately respond like, Ugh, that is terrible. I don't want to listen to that. That's a good sign. That's a sign of mental health. So
13m 5s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
When it's too much and you're done and it's like,
13m 8s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So we want to say to people out there who are sleeping 16 hours, that this is not normal, not natural, not good. And there might be okay, some psychological things going on. And of course, one of the best things for that is to share it with somebody what is going on with you. Yeah. But because people are so quarantined, they might not have access to talking spontaneously to people about what's going on, but that would be one of the better remedies talking about it. But also now that we're telling you on the air, we're both licensed professionals here in the mental health field, telling you 16 hours of sleep consistently is not a good thing. You need to do things deliberately in order to not to exacerbate your psychological symptoms.
13m 55s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So let's talk about the good part of sleep, which, well, there's not a bad part of sleep, at least when it goes well. So what are the conditions of a perfect night's sleep and why are they so rare? Right? I mean, can we get ourselves into a rhythm? You know, last week we did a show on rhythm and the rhythm of all of this. Can we get ourselves into a rhythm where we have a consistently perfect night's sleep.
14m 24s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
There are a lot of people who talk about this, who talk about ways to sort of ritualize your sleep, you're going to sleep. And that it really helps to stabilize your system, your mind. It's like you have a routine, maybe you take a shower. A lot of people recommend sort of cleaning off the day, try to stay away from electronics. You make the lights, dimmer, you sort of quiet things down in your life. And then you can sort of ease into sleep
14m 53s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Even hours before like, yeah,
14m 56s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Mean three hours before I think make
14m 59s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Your, your bedroom place, where you sleep a Haven that you are entering at a certain time. But in preparation, prep, preparing that Haven for you to go into it.
15m 13s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
A lot of people suggest taking all electronics out of the bedroom. Yes. All electronics charge your phones somewhere else, all of that, just let it all be gone. Just maybe your clock is there if you need it. And there's a way that you can start to, you know, really get yourself, you know, make it a specific time. You have a bedtime, you're going to go keep it constant. And it really does help. We spend so much of our lives sleeping. You have to take care of your sleep
15m 43s
Kevin O'Donoghue
To be fair. This is a more difficult time to set up a ritual like this because let's, you know, people are saying, Oh, I have time. I can do some do things. I've never had a chance to do before in terms of sleep and hours of sleep. So it's a bit of a challenge to, to set this up now, but we do recommend it. We think it's, it's going to be really important, especially for those of you are sleeping more than 10 hours really extending the hypnagogic and hypnopompic states because what is there to wake up to? I mean, ultimately we've been forced to wake up to go to our jobs, right? The structured of the world outside.
16m 25s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And when that's not so demanding, then what are we waking up to? You know, I used to always think people who get up and go exercise right away, first thing in the morning, that is just, it never struck me as a healthy thing to do. You know, to me, I need to get my rhythm. I need my day to begin, but to wake up, put your, you know, your running sneakers on and go out for a run. The first thing in the morning, I don't know to me, it's Holy, you know, the morning is holy, waking up is holy, this period of time where you have time adapting to life again, because almost every waking day is a new life. It's a new day.
17m 4s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Well, I wonder if that's also a function of like how you woke up as a kid. I mean, did you wake up in a, in an environment where you had to just get going immediately? You know, and children have such interesting sleep cycles and they need so much more sleep than we do as adults. And if you're someone who was like, you know, forced out of bed at the crack of Dawn, it might, it might have like, again, like a coupling around waking up and being pushed into the day. There are a lot of people that, you know, it's like waking up and going for a run is like the perfect morning. Cause it's quiet, it's time to themselves. So, you know, we, we have so many different ways of approaching this.
17m 46s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And I think again, like we said in our show last week, too, just notice, what is your, what is your best sleep? What is your best way to sleep? What is your, what is your rhythm find your rhythm for sleep as well? I think I'm discovering mine and it's really wonderful to sort of have it back. It's about seven hours. Now. I do have a dog. People with children kind of don't have a choice
18m 11s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Because sometimes
18m 13s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Yeah, their kids are waking up early or maybe later now I think they're saying that a lot of, a lot of schools are starting later or teens are getting that little bit more of time to sleep and that's better for them than having to wake up at five and six in the morning.
18m 26s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. And for young children to be finished at schoolwork by 10:00 AM is a real challenge for parents. So we have to acknowledge that. So sleep is one aspect and getting it right. Is, is something really important for your mental health and all aspects of sleep are terrific, especially when it goes well. But let's talk about that fascinating aspect of sleep like dreams, you know, modern psychology started with Freud, you know, and the interpretation of dreams, my what a, what a Canon, a canonical piece, what a huge piece of writing in the psychology field and to wade your way through that, that was in the 19th century, 1895, this analysis of dreams, what an undertaking and what a mystery dream still are,
19m 19s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Huge mystery to science. They're studying it. They're not sure why, how what's the purpose of dreams yet. Everybody has them. I mean, I really think just about everybody in the world dreams and all mammals seem to dream. We see it in dogs and cats and horses and you know, all, it's just like, what's the function of dreaming. What's the function of this, this state. And what's interesting is the state of sleep in which you dream is a paradoxical state because you are, you know, physically immobilized by your body so that you don't act out your dreams.
19m 59s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Now, there are some people who do, and that's a specific sleep disorder, but your, your body kind of paralyzes you and your mind starts going through all these different things and stories and your eyes are moving. It's REM sleep. It's the REM state rapid eye movement, rapid eye movement. And you're in a hypnagogic state, which means that you are completely paralyzed in your body. Your muscles will not move when you're in this state. And it's a good thing.
20m 28s
Kevin O'Donoghue
It's only 20% of adult sleep cycle in kids and children. It's 80%. So just so you know, it gets less as you get older, but they finding, you know, when they wake somebody out of an REM sleep, and by the way, this state was discovered in 1953 by scientists. And they woke people up and they realized they were dreaming and they could report their dreams, right. So it's only about 20 to 25% of adult sleep cycle. But you know, here's a question. Have you ever had a dream that made you make a decision?
21m 10s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Have you woken up out of a dream and said, okay, I'm going to change that. I'm going to do this now. I know. I, I mean, I quit a job because of a dream I woke up and I said, that's it. I'm not going back. You know, I'll, I'll ride out the rest of the year and I'm leaving that job. And I did, I quit the job big, you know, there were other signs before that, but that was the last straw. And I, so I believe in the power of dreams and I think dreams serve a huge function and they report people who don't have dreams, have a lot of difficulties, irritability, lack of concentration, excessive appetite for food, hallucinations.
22m 2s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You know, so these dreaming serves a really important function. We have to find out what it is that function for. I'd always said that dreams are a mask. They camouflage what really thinking. And we have to find the unconscious material there. And it was always of a sexual nature for Freud, right? But now we're realizing dreams serve a problem solving function.
22m 27s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So science has been, you know, studying dreams and trying to figure out, you know, what's going on. We have more capability to sort of watch the brain while it's streaming. And they're really noticing how dreams seem to be an aid in helping you process and form memories. You know, it consolidates learning.
22m 48s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What do you mean memories? Say, say a little bit more about that.
22m 52s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I think it, I think what it does, it's like a, like a digesting of your, of your day through your dreams and that, and it tends to have a lot of emotional content,
23m 1s
Kevin O'Donoghue
James Carey, universal messages, the archetypes and the symbols. He thought of dreams as symbolic, right? That symbols and images come in through the dreams that tap into traditional universal across the universe of men, archetypes that reveal thinking patterns, all of which we are unconscious. And so they're, what are they dreams? They're the road to the unconscious, as Freud said, dreams of the road to the young, the Royal road to the unconscious and young said there, the Royal road to wisdom
23m 39s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And well, and it kind of makes sense. I mean, if you're, if you're using dreams and the imagery of dreams, as a way of sort of processing your day and helping memories get filed away in your brain, kind of thinking, wow, somebody who's depressed or taking different medications, sometimes their dreams are interrupted. I think it makes things more difficult to, to process your day to day if you lose this capacity at night.
24m 12s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Well, you know, it's funny, it's interesting. You mentioned medications because medications can intensify dreams and intensify the negative aspects of dreams. So if, if you're on an antidepressant, you know, they're finding that your dreams are much starker, vivid and darker than if you're not on medication. Yeah. This is, this is in the literature. They're finding that med taking the medications makes your dream, plus it interrupts dream. I mean, think of, think of what alcohol does to dreaming and to, to your sleep cycle. So it would make sense that medications would affect your dreaming content.
24m 55s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So I wonder if you're on antidepressant that you were really solving any problems you might be having intensity of emotions that you're not feeling during the daytime, but are you solving anything or any problems getting solved or is it just a repetition of a particular emotion?
25m 13s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I wonder if it's, if it's, if it's, if you're sort of repressing certain emotional thoughts and qualities, like they talk about people who are fasting often dream of feasts, you know, it's like you kind of get the, the, the bounce back, the throwback, the rubber band effect, like, okay, I was feeling good all day, but throughout the night, I feel terrible. There isn't a sort of balance between the two in your day to day.
25m 40s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And to finish with, with young, who said that that's primarily what dreaming does is it integrates it balances aspects of the personality. So if you are an extreme intellect, let's say you're an intellectual or something. And you have, let's say emotional dreams. Young would see that as a positive because you're integrating these polarities, these separate things. And so because of that, you'd be a wiser person, right? So,
26m 9s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And, and also there are some researchers who believe that dreams are a response by the brain or the mind to different biochemical changes and electrical input impulses that happen during sleep. So our physical chemistry is changing. Our brain chemistry is changing at night, as we move through the different stages of sleep and our mind might be somehow responding to those changes. I know some people at some points during the night, there is a biochemical rush of cortisol and is our fight or flight hormone. And I think sometimes this gets connected with dreams that have high, high fight flight content.
26m 53s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
You know, you're, you're being chased or you're falling, or you're fighting somebody off that that can be linked to that surge in cortisol. Sometimes we wake up out of these dreams and then you wake up in your, like in such a you're in that state and you can't go back to sleep. And I think some people are having more of this happen at like three and four in the morning. I've been hearing people saying, I keep waking up at three and four in the morning. I can't get back to sleep. And it might be again, like as a result of this sort of underground, unconscious awareness of this attack by an attacker, we can't see, right. That's kind of in our subconscious now, it's like really pulling on all of those fears and vulnerabilities that we feel is just human race against this unseen attack.
27m 43s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You know, there's a phenomenon. Some people wake up the same sack the same minute every night in the middle of the night for 27, you know, three 53. It's like amazing what is going on? Just another one of the major mysteries of sleep. And we're going to be talking much more about this. When we come back, I want to talk about classic dreams and what they might mean more wondering about any dreams that you're having. And maybe that was a really good time to have a dream journal. If you've ever wanted to write down your dreams now might be the time to do that. So when we come back from the musical break, we'll talk about a dream that's classic for this time of COVID-19 and other classic dreams stay with us.
29m 54s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And I'm Niseema Dyan Diemer, and I'm here with Kevin O'Donoghue and you're listening to The Positive Mind. And today we're talking about sleep and dreams during pandemic. And, you know, I was looking online and I found an interesting dream that somebody reported it's called. He had called it touch, but it's, I had a simple dream. I met a girl and she kissed me. It was warm and gentle orange sunlight streamed through the windows becoming more conscious. I replayed the moment over and over. I haven't touched someone in almost two months, this Mirage
30m 32s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Gift. You bet that is a gift. And how many people have been that way? You know, I've been part of groups where they say, I haven't touched a human face in two months. Yeah. And many of us are not even making eye contact with each other. And if we are, we have a mask on, you know, so there's such a deprivation going on. That's a gift that is a gift. Do you have another dream?
30m 53s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Well, I'm a self had a dream about like hanging out with people again, like there was suddenly a lot of people in my dreams. I think I'm really craving being back, like hanging out with friends.
31m 5s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So imagine the feeling that is that's complementing or replacing the feeling of deprivation and scarcity that you must be feeling for a dream like that to come. These are our best dreams. Aren't they, you know, Freud always said that a dream is a wish fulfilled, a wish fulfillment. And here's a wish right. To be touched, to be seen, to see others, to be spontaneous and playful and at ease with people. And we have had a huge shortage of that. And so that kind of dream makes sense to me.
31m 43s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
I think we often dream of what we've lost too. I know people have dreams of loved ones that they've lost or maybe times in their life that they've lost or like the loss of the busy-ness of the city.
31m 57s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. There's another deprivation in the opposite of that. I mean, here's a question like, do you have some dreams that just have repeated through the years for you? I came across an interesting one that I keep having and it's that I'm going I'm in my last semester of college and it's, it may close to graduation. And I haven't been to three classes all semester. I'm telling you, this is the honest truth. I keep, I graduated very well, very high in my class. I did very well, but I keep having this dream. And it's funny as I'm having the dream in the dream, I'm like, it's all cool.
32m 39s
Kevin O'Donoghue
I've got to cover. I'm going to be okay. And I'm thinking, do I know that professor well enough to bribe them or something like that. So, but it keeps coming back. And I really discovered that usually this is an indication of difficulty with your current job that you're not completing, or you feeling like not completing your work well enough. And that your job is very tenuous, very uncertain, very insecure. So that was fascinating to me. It was good to finally find out what that was about. Cause I, I, I've been trying to figure out what is this all about?
33m 19s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And it's pretty consistent, strong fear, strong feeling in there. So dreams are also reflective of what's going on in your life. Now today,
33m 30s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
One way that young described it is emotions and pictures. So today it's an overwhelming time and you might be having dreams about being overwhelmed and one typical dream. And it's a dream that I've often happened had it's a tidal wave dream. Like the, the, the water's rising, you see the wave coming. You're like, how can I get to high ground? There's the fear of it just overtaking you. And that is a typical overwhelm dream. It's like, this is something that's beyond my control. It's bigger than me. I'm not going to be able to stop it. How can I get away from it?
34m 10s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So powerlessness, hopelessness, fear, anxiety. These are all things that come through that dream. And they make sense. Like if you're having those dreams, now this is an overwhelming time on an unconscious level. It's deeply overwhelming. All of these changes.
34m 26s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Is it fair to say the first thing people should do when they wake out of it, a vivid, strong dream, like that is what is the emotion, because it's never going to be exactly what's happening. For instance, if you survived a fire, you're not going to be dreaming of a fire. You're going to be dreaming of a tidal wave instead, something that's out of your control, something in which you're powerless. Now, this is true. They're finding, you know, people with 9/11 dreams, they're not dreaming about the airplanes. They're dreaming something else, like a tidal wave somewhere where they're feeling perilous. So, I mean, the mind is a tremendous, you know, projector, an image maker, Nisima that it's ingenious what it can come up with to try and stabilize and balance the emotions that you might be having.
35m 19s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So take the emotion. I think right now, a lot of people's emotions are very flat that people are guarding themselves and have been through this isolation and have limited the range of their emotions. I think it's just natural. I think what, you know, what is worth the effort? Why, why I'm trying to protect we're all in a self protected mode and emotions can make us feel unprotected and vulnerable and vulnerable. So let me limit the range of my emotions. So I think people's dreaming might not be very severe right now,
36m 0s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Or it could be the exact opposite too. Like you were saying, like, like if your, if your emotions are oppressed during the day, you might have more intense emotional content at night during your dreams. Because again, the emotions are still there, whether you're conscious of them or letting them be there or not. And it's something to just note, like how it might give you a, a way to know, how am I managing, you know, it's like if I'm having intensely emotional dreams and maybe I am repressing my Mo my emotions during the day or the opposite, you know, it's like, if my dream seemed to be okay, maybe I am managing this better than I thought I was. So I think there's the potential for both,
36m 43s
Kevin O'Donoghue
But people are also putting a limit on other people's feelings and emotions and expressions as well. I mean, people are saying under there's an undercurrent. Like we're all struggling, we're all in a pandemic. You know, don't get overly excited and asked me to be there with you. It's almost like, you know, don't you see we're all in this. And you're having a deep emotion, a wide, big emotion about X, Y, Z. You know, I think people are this self protection is, is having a contagious effect on each other where we're not really expressing our emotions. So I think that, that's what we said at the very beginning of this pandemic was get some allies, find some people that you can talk to share things with.
37m 29s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Can you share your emotions? Can you share your vulnerability? Can you share your isolation and your feelings about this isolation? This is what's important and yes, share your dreams. If you can share what dreams are having share your sleep cycle,
37m 45s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And if not the exact dream, the feeling that came out of the dream. I think that's probably the more important thing. Like sometimes when I don't remember my dreams, or if you feel a little shy about sharing, maybe it was content you don't want to share, you can share the feeling it's like, I had a dream last night that made me feel so hopeless and talk about that and how that might apply to your day and maybe what, what you feel hopeless or helpless against, and that can, you know, unearth some more interesting emotions. And the reason why we wanted to bring in vulnerability today is that sleep is one of the most vulnerable things we do in our lives, sort of lay down and become unconscious and to do that alone is, is okay.
38m 31s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
But to do that with another person is even more vulnerable. Like you just don't know. And, and the vulnerability of dreams too, like we kind of, unless you, unless you become sort of a master of your dreams, which people do lucid dreaming, and they really work with their dreams and they go in asking for specific dreams and asking for, you know, help, you know, from your unconscious
38m 55s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Is the dream work movement it's called. You can go dreamwork movement.com and see all of the research and work and creativity that's coming out of investigating our dreams recording. Yeah.
39m 7s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And there are people that, you know, work on this level, but, but just sort of tuning into how vulnerable you are, the typical person, like you don't have control of your dreams. Typically. I don't, sometimes I'm so convinced my dream is so real that I I'm really fully believe my dream to be reality. And then it's like, I have to take a few moments when I wake up to be like, Oh, thank God. That was not really what was happening, but it just seems so real. And, you know, isn't it incredible that we can, you know, be convinced of the reality of something, even though it's a bit absurd or, you know, doesn't make sense, but it's like, you're so convinced it's real, but I feel so vulnerable.
39m 51s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Do women share their dreams more than men? I mean, I don't, I don't think I've ever been in a conversation with men talking about our dreams, you know, I mean, and I mean, night dreams, not like my dreams for a huge success or whatever, but, but I would imagine that women actually do talk about dreams that are having. Yeah, I think so. And I'm curious, curious about the thread that runs through women talking about dreams, because like I said, I meant men don't, but imagine you have permission, like it's one of the few places dreaming where you're allowed to not be responsible.
40m 32s
Kevin O'Donoghue
If you think about it, I can have, I was dreaming. I didn't, you know, I didn't mean to have that thought, but there it is
40m 43s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Often couples talk about having dreams of affairs and
40m 47s
Kevin O'Donoghue
They don't talk to each other about that, but you're right. You never know. Of course they do.
40m 52s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
It can show a certain longing, a certain aspect of, you know, the relationship that maybe you're missing or that you're longing for desiring or a feeling that you're missing.
41m 1s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Of course it would be so terrific for couples in general, to share that with each other, it would be such a good thing. It would really, you know, it's something couples avoid and hide from. And yet it would be the most refreshing thing because it's natural, it's natural. So anyway, dreams can be a place where you can think whatever and not be responsible for it. Although there might have a secret, it might have a piece of wisdom in it for you. And I can't say it enough. I think now is a really good time for people who have never recorded their dreams to pay attention to your dreams. See if what the thread is, it might be telling you why you're feeling the way you are in your waking life.
41m 48s
Kevin O'Donoghue
If you're feeling great, find out what your dreams are. Those are, those are echoing. Why your life is great. If your, if your dreams are terrible, find out why they're terrible. It might echo the reason why you're not happy and how you're not taking care of yourself. So let's talk a little bit Niseema about this concept of vulnerability, because we're all vulnerable. Now. I hate to admit it. You know, we're in ninth, you know, week nine of this. And has anybody talked yet about vulnerability? You're vulnerable to the virus. We've talked about that enough, the PA the, the press and the media talked about it. But what about personal vulnerability,
42m 30s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Your career, your life path, everything, everything has been changed. And when things are uncertain, that's when vulnerability comes out, you know, it's like, we want to make things certain. We, we, we've been given many different messages. We're vulnerable to the news. We're vulnerable to our own ideas, our own fears, our past, our own traumas. All these things can contribute to these feelings of vulnerability and vulnerability in and of itself is such a complex emotional state. And it's the emotional state in which most people can feel connected.
43m 14s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And it's like, we connect in our vulnerabilities. We connect in our it's our humanity, you know, being vulnerable as human. Yet we do so much to not be vulnerable.
43m 23s
Kevin O'Donoghue
That's right. I mean, famous woman right now, Brene Brown. B R E N E. Brown said, you know, we all, if you asked a crowd of people, what they thought of somebody being vulnerable, they would all say, Oh, it's heroic. It's courageous. It's terrific. It's amazing. And then if you ask them, how do you feel about being vulnerable? How, when have you last been vulnerable? Do you want to be vulnerable? Nobody raises their hand. So it's, it's a, it's a thing of beauty to witness, to watch somebody being vulnerable. And she gets to the root of this, the same way she talks about rejection, you know, and rejecting vulnerability.
44m 8s
Kevin O'Donoghue
People will reject being vulnerable because of some shame, because of some grief, because of some disappointment, because of some sadness, because of some fear, because of one of these dark emotions, people that I'm never going to be vulnerable. Did you make that pact with yourself at some point, think back, you know, did you say no, I'm never going to be vulnerable. I can't be vulnerable. I won't be vulnerable.
44m 37s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And the, and the real issue with that is that when you say I'm never going to be vulnerable, it means I'm never going to connect because connecting was too scary or dangerous.
44m 50s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. That's exactly what she says. She says, shame really shame is the fear of disconnection. I get shamed because I'm afraid I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy of connection. So disconnection is my lot in life. I'm going to stay on this side, the disconnection side and never experienced vulnerability. This is why without even reading a book or being told about it, this is why everybody sees somebody who's being vulnerable as being heroic and courageous and wanting to be that person wanting to be able to do that.
45m 26s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
So there's something really rich about what's happening with vulnerability right now, because everybody's, I think feeling vulnerability that maybe they don't want to feel. And one way that you squash vulnerability is by making things certain. So notice if you're trying to make certainties in your life right now, right now, everything is so uncertain. And so unknown. We don't know what's going to happen a day from now two weeks from now, this really tries our vulnerability meter. And so just notice if you're trying to make things really certain in your life, you might be avoiding a certain vulnerability.
46m 9s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Like this is just an unknown. Can I, can I trust and relax into that?
46m 16s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Yes. And, and we're not saying that, you know, you're going to be vulnerable every day and share every vulnerability you're having every moment. Cause I think she makes it very clear that you know, vulnerability is, can be the consequence of moving past a sense of unworthiness, moving past a sense of shame, moving past the reasons you feel you should be disconnected. So it's really an effort at connection. That vulnerability is. So, you know, Nisima talking about your, your sad feelings every day. That's not vulnerability.
46m 57s
Kevin O'Donoghue
Vulnerability is I'm feeling unworthy on some level. I might not even be able to have the words to describe what it is. I'm making an effort at connecting. I'm trying to get past my disconnection. That's the beauty of one.
47m 13s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And it really could be just picking up the phone and calling that friend, that's a vulnerable action. Like I'm just going to reach out and connect. I'm going to move beyond my fear, move beyond maybe what happened with us. Maybe move beyond and just say, look, you know, I really miss you, right? And I just wanted to hear your voice.
47m 31s
Kevin O'Donoghue
It's an act of connection. Let's, let's make that clear to people. So where does this fit in? What we're all going through right now? I mean, there is a vulnerability going on, but is there a shame going on a personal private shame? In what way might you be acquainted with shame in a different way during this period of time, you know, Bernay Brown. She says that scarcity American scarcity that we, we in, in this land of abundance, that we're all still feeling a sense of scarcity. And this is before the pandemic, she's talking about that.
48m 11s
Kevin O'Donoghue
There's, there's a scarcity. And that it's, it's the equivalent of post-traumatic stress. That adults have a sense of a, not enough. I haven't achieved enough. I haven't gotten there enough. I'm not worthy of connection enough. I haven't really arrived yet. When I get that degree, when I get that career, when I get that extra salary, when I get that nice car, so the neighbors can see when I get a better apartment, whatever it is when I get my three week vacation, all the things that Americans are reaching to show each other, that we subconsciously it's coming from a place of scarcity and where there's scarcity, there's trauma and where's, there's trauma, there's shame and disconnection.
48m 59s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And so she's inviting us to reach beyond the scarcity, reach beyond the trauma and try to,
49m 7s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And, and I'm just going to say, reach beyond the mask. I mean, we've got all these mass on, we've got this distance. We need to find a way to reach each other beyond this, this need, this current need to stay distant.
49m 23s
Kevin O'Donoghue
So what, what could you, I'm sorry. I just want to get back to this idea of shame. You know, we, we started the show by talking about sleep. You know, it's funny thing when people call you on the telephone and you're sleeping and they say, are you sleeping? Oh, no, I'm not sleeping. I'm I'm not, I'm reading the encyclopedia Britannica. I mean, aren't you, what is there, where does there about sleep that makes people ashamed. But I mean, I think it's a question we could ask. Do you have a private shame about this pandemic that, you know, you haven't achieved enough? You didn't learn the guitar well enough or you didn't master Spanish yet.
50m 5s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You know, the project you started, you know, hasn't really blossomed yet. Is there, is there some, because we are disconnected and when we're disconnected, you can't help, but wonder, am I worthy? I mean, is it right for me to feel disconnected? Am I disconnected? Like everybody else is, anybody is disconnected as I am, man. I'm really deep into this disconnection. And so there's this unworthiness in this shame that can creep in. And I'm wondering like, because of the pandemic, are there things that people are feeling particularly privately ashamed of and, and, and sleep, I think could be one of them, you know, that I'm sleeping too much or I'm fatigued and I don't know why, and I can't get out of it and it's all the time, or I'm not eating properly and, you know, different things, whatever it might be, or I'm doing certain things to access.
51m 4s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And I know it's not a good thing. As somebody told me last night that they, their alcohol consumption has doubled, doubled. And I said, well, how's the cigarettes. And they said worse, you know? And it's like, what else for that, for that person? It's what else is there to do? And we talked, we did, we talked it out. We talked it out. Nah, you know, he used to be a very active guy, very physical. And you know, we talked about his garden and maybe planting something new this year. So, so anyway, it's just that, I think he was a little ashamed.
51m 47s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You know, he was sharing this with me. I've been drinking too much, very subtle, just came out in his conversation and he wanted to share that with somebody, you know, he hadn't shared that with anybody
51m 59s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And I'm sure you may have explored what, what the drinking was, maybe covering up like wanting to numb. Cause that's the thing when we're feeling vulnerable, we want to sort of numb it out because it's such a terrifying kind of feeling. And when you numb out the vulnerability, you numb out all the other emotions. This is something that Bernie Oban also talks about. Like if we don't allow our sort of awareness of our vulnerability, that, you know, life is unpredictable and there's a certain feeling to that. If we numb that out, we kind of lose our capacity to feel sadness, to feel grief, to feel happiness, joy, love, abundance.
52m 47s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
Like how do you really feel about this what's happening? Like just sort of drop into your body and, and just get a sense, like,
52m 57s
Kevin O'Donoghue
What are you feeling right now right now? And be honest and just register all of the feelings you might be feeling right now. Start there and then ask, am I feeling disconnected? Am I feeling connected or disconnected? And how can I get connected? So let's, let's recap our show Niseema because we only have a minute or two left. We talked sleep and really sleep as a Haven, right. And sleep. It can be wonderful when it's right
53m 33s
Niseema Dyan Diemer
And so important for your physical body, your mental being your spiritual building, your capacity to sort of deal with what's going on.
53m 42s
Kevin O'Donoghue
And we have this problem solving mechanism that goes on in dreaming this so much science, so much research about dreams. You know, the limbic brain, the prefrontal cortex being activated REM sleep. And, and now they're having like 84 there, 84 sleep disorders, 84 sleep disorders and growing, right? So it's a, it's a vastly growing field to study, and this is available to you. But we have this problem solving mechanism called dreaming, going on. It might be a good time for you to start a dream journal
53m 51s
Kevin O'Donoghue
You have been listening to The Positive Mind, I am Kevin O'Donoghue. Thank you for tuning in. And if you have any comments about today about the show, please send them to me at kevin@thepositivemind.com.